Comments on Howard Lovy's NanoBot: A new wrinkle for Eddie Bauer

While i'm well aware of the irony, every post here...

2005-07-29T12:11:00.000-04:00

While i'm well aware of the irony, every post here draws more attention to the general subject of nanotechnology,and ultimately the fruitless debate of (somewhat) "informed" opinions. The one saving grace is the cheap thrill of partially nude people.

Hmm. Well, I was only 4 years old in 1969, but I s...

2005-06-10T14:27:00.000-04:00

Hmm. Well, I was only 4 years old in 1969, but I saw the "Woodstock" movie. Now THAT was classy nudity?

Back in my day, us kids could hold protests that d...

2005-06-10T14:21:00.000-04:00

Back in my day, us kids could hold protests that didn't make us look like idiots. T.H.O.N.G. is no better than the creationists trying to destroy our future, but with classless nudity added in.

I really like the vague babble such brainless trip...

2005-05-13T20:52:00.000-04:00

I really like the vague babble such brainless tripe sports:

"At this scale, materials behave differently than their larger counterparts, and can possibly be more reactive and toxic, posing unknown risks to human health and the environment."

Thus they can possibly be less reactive and non-toxic. Basically we don't know of any bad effects, but we can justify our existence by playing on your fears of the new and unknown. Since there is new stuff everywhere that lots of people don't know about, we are set for life.

Or this junk: "Nanoparticles have been found to penetrate the blood brain barrier. Inhalation of many types of nanoparticles have been proven to be toxic to animals in lab tests."

Just replace 'nanoparticles' with 'water' and you may see how stupid this sentence is.

Oh! And Swiss RE won't reinsure them! Holy cow! Because insurance companies love to insure new things they know all the 'progressive' trial lawyers are going to go after to make themselves rich.

But hey, nekkid girls! I'm totally onboard with THONG now!

"And, despite all that, some of us respect you for...

2005-05-13T16:47:00.000-04:00

"And, despite all that, some of us respect you for taking a position. Too few in this world do."

Thanks for the respect. And please appreciate that we have respect for much of what is done by science, and many of the people who do science. I, for instance, would have died in childhood if it weren't for antibiotics and central heating (that presumably would have made some happy, but . . .)

Scientists, generally, at least, have a commitment to truth, and dedicate themselves to the betterment of humanity (though scientists, like everybody else, can make mistakes.) We are more concerned with what the salesmen and governments do with your inventions after they leave your hands. Think of Oppenheimer, a wonderful man, and a brilliant scientist, who came to regret letting his particular genie out of the bottle. The government exploited his brilliance in ways he never imagined. We know most scientists are more like Oppenheimer than Teller. We consider scientists the least threatening, indeed, the most promising, of the communities we seek to influence, and we share their quest for truth. We hope to convince you to consider the consequences of your inventions before they leave your hands, and pass to the salesmen and governments. Your specialized knowledge puts you in the best position to prevent the potential harm which concerns us. Please don't let us (and the rest of humanity) down. Please be careful about what you give to the salesmen and governments.

We don't judge you solely by nano-hype. And we appreciate people who don't judge us solely by our counter-nano-hype. We also understand that the work we do, to a certain extent, serves the purposes of the salesmen ("Bad PR is better than no PR.") Our culture is in the process of shaping the myth of nanotechnology, and that myth will have a powerful influence on the future reality of nanotechnology (as Alchemy had a powerful influence in shaping Chemistry and Physics.) We want the myth to include a careful assessment of the risks which are attendant to any new technology.

And we think that Frank Zappa (may he rest in peace) would like both nanotechnology, and T.H.O.N.G. The two are not mutually exclusive -- Zappa was a master at combining apparently opposing values. He was an example to us all.

T.H.O.N.G.

Topless Humans Organized For Natural Genetics -- Putting Our Bodies Between Your Lips And Biotech

Frank Zappa should have started his 1985 Senate te...

2005-05-13T01:14:00.000-04:00

Frank Zappa should have started his 1985 Senate testimony before the Committee On Commerce by building a scanning tunneling electron microscope. Remember that the same minds that brought you DDT also shaped your penicillin pills. It’s all idealistic fun and games until someone comes down with Strep throat. For the record:

(1) No heterosexual male in your organization will ever be taken seriously.

(2) The fact that you haven’t recruited every mildly exhibitionistic male in your voting district means someone has to start telling someone else where Fight Club meets every Friday.

(3) When you find you’re allowed full duration to state your views in front of an audience you hope to enlighten/aggravate, remember that a disproportionate number of the members in such audiences are probably men. Old men. Dirty old men.

(4) Speaking of dirty old men, please practice a strict 20-something Menudo policy before some of us in your audience act out our favorite scenes from Logan’s Run.

(5) If you find yourself breaking into a mixed audience conference, please DON’T pop in during one of the scientific talks. Wait for an investor talk or some vulture capital round table. Companies have people paid to make slick Powerpoint presentations and will have to stop cold since they likely won’t be properly practiced to pick up where they left off. Academics have to sit there and make pictures themselves and work hard to make their work understandable.

I never imagined using “Laugh-In era Goldie Hawn” to describe a guerilla tactic.

And, despite all that, some of us respect you for taking a position. Too few in this world do.

B.I.K.I.N.I - Buttoned Intellects Keen on Instigating Nanotech Initiatives - hoping to put our hands over the lips between our bodies and biotech

Gentlemen, For your own sake, we woul...

2005-05-12T13:38:00.000-04:00

Gentlemen,

For your own sake, we would advise against imagining our correspondent to this site as the archetypal rigidly dogmatic feminist in a pink thong.

That characterization is misguided, and might ultimately lead to some discomfort on your part.

Among other things, our correspondent to this site is male.

T.H.O.N.G.

Topless Humans Organized For Natural Genetics -- Putting Our Bodies Between Your Lips And Biotech

Oh, for pete's sake, let's get right down to the h...

2005-05-12T10:08:00.000-04:00

Oh, for pete's sake, let's get right down to the heart of the matter-- Howard, did you get the name and phone number of the girl in the pink underwear? More importantly, can you email them to me?

-the Nano-Bostonian

Heh. Luddites are funny. People racing to meet t...

2005-05-11T12:51:00.001-04:00

Heh. Luddites are funny. People racing to meet their own obsolescence are funny.

Anyway, the temperature at which Teflon releases gases is extremely high. Pretty much the only way you can get a teflon pan to that temperature is to leave it sitting for a long, long time on a stove set to 'high'.

But hey, don't let facts stand between you and good theater. I know how important it is for those without talent or skill to feel like they're 'making a difference'.

There's certainly an interesting debate to be had about the safety of a new technology. Alarmist hysteria is not that debate, and serves no purpose except to make itself irrelevant.

If you really wanted to 'make a difference' in anything other than an empty and self-congratulatory way, you'd present current research and engage others in debate. But, of course, that might lead you to the inevitable conclusion that 1) not ALL nanotech is bad and 2) not ALL genetically modified organisms are bad.

And that would dilute the ideology. Can't have that.

"Look at the posts above for debate on whether the...

2005-05-11T12:51:00.000-04:00

"Look at the posts above for debate on whether these products actually involve nanotechnology. That is not our debate. That is an issue for Eddie Bauer, Nano-Tex, and anyone in the industry concerned with it."

LOL so in other words, you don't know anything about nanotech and are just embarrasing yourself. Gotcha.

And you people criticize us for being silly? Get ...

2005-05-11T11:41:00.000-04:00

And you people criticize us for being silly? Get back to the frat house, boys, you're House Mother is worried about you.

T.H.O.N.G.

Topless Humans Organized For Natural Genetics -- Putting Our Bodies Between Your Lips And Biotech

Okay, THONG I get, but POBBYLAB? What the heck is ...

2005-05-11T08:25:00.000-04:00

Okay, THONG I get, but POBBYLAB? What the heck is that supposed to represent? How do you even say that?

Oh, wait, LAB...they work in a lab! Where they make POBBY's! Is this a competitor for nanopants!

Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or ...

2005-05-11T07:56:00.000-04:00

Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society.

-Mark Twain

I tried on some nanopants the other day, but they ...

2005-05-11T06:10:00.000-04:00

I tried on some nanopants the other day, but they were just too damn small.

Is this hyper-literal-minded Church Lady character...

2005-05-11T01:38:00.000-04:00

Is this hyper-literal-minded Church Lady character from THONG real, or an overextended parody? We're all familiar with the "pathologically humorless activist-against-everything" stereotype, but I didn't think they really existed in real life. I mean, it's a stereotype, right? Nobody's really as robotic as that. It can't be real.

You're right, owen! We must nip nanometers in the bud! Also atoms. I hear they're even smaller yet. BAN ATOMS NOW. Plutonium is made of atoms and it's very poisonous. If it's true that allegedly-safe so-called "wood" is made of atoms as well, dare we allow it into our homes? Shouldn't somebody be sued? Don't blame me, blame the physicists for calling them "atoms"!

As part of the nano protest meme, I am forming a n...

2005-05-10T23:23:00.000-04:00

As part of the nano protest meme, I am forming a new group to protest the nanometer! I mean, who could possibly need to measure things that small!!

Yeah.What's up with the Rear View Only shots on th...

2005-05-10T23:00:00.000-04:00

Yeah.

What's up with the Rear View Only shots on their site?

They call themselves "Topless Humans Organized for Natural Genetics" but all we see are bottoms.

I think that sucks more than genetically altered tee shirts.

Forest fires are uncontrolled releases of nanopart...

2005-05-10T22:45:00.000-04:00

Forest fires are uncontrolled releases of nanoparticles, dioxins, and bucky balls even.

I think we could get more fire fighters cheap if folks like these showed up for every forest fire.

Excellent debate, ladies and gentlemen, and I had ...

2005-05-10T13:57:00.000-04:00

Excellent debate, ladies and gentlemen, and I had to delete only one comment during this entire cycle. (I do not delete ideas, only profanity and name-calling without a purpose). Let me make a couple points here, and then I'll close this thread and we'll move on.

First, this was a record day for NanoBot, with the most visitors in my almost-two-year history. Because many people were introduced to this blog through this post only, some commented on my lack of comment regarding the accuracy of claims made by the protesters. To them, I invited them to stay a while and take a look around. I'm usually accused of commenting too much. I've spent the past two years commenting on various angles of this story. I'm also proud to have been the only nanotech news outlet to give this event significant play and to host debate on it. My opinions in a nanoshell: The protesters are misguided, have their facts wrong and have been mislead by environmental "research" that is particularly one-sided and out to promote a single agenda. Nanotech, I believe, has the potential to be just the opposite of what they claim: It could be more "green" and more "organic" and "natural" than the paint they put on their bodies. I also believe they are absolutely correct when they say that their choice to ignore the potential good of nanotech and focus only on the potential bad is not any more deceptive than the propaganda put out by nanoscientists and nanobusinesspeople, themselves.

To those who believe that I'm simply giving silliness and ignorance a public forum, I'd ask only that they point to where I have shined a light on opinions or beliefs that are not held by significant numbers of people -- informed or uninformed, and to ask where exactly it does the science and business of nanotech any good to pretend like these beliefs are not held by many people outside their own elite club.

And, one more thing. When it comes to street theater, I prefer mine to be, well, theatrical. These folks did not gather in downtown Chicago to present their white papers. They were acting as clowns, as distractions to get people to pay attention -- if only to focus on their own lunacy. You know, it worked. More people are thinking about nanotechnology today, and seeking accurate information about it, than they were yesterday. And we have the THONG-sters, and this blog to thank for it.

Thank you, everybody. And, remember, question everything. If your mother says she loves you, check it out.

Howard

Look at the posts above for debate on whether thes...

2005-05-10T13:54:00.000-04:00

Look at the posts above for debate on whether these products actually involve nanotechnology. That is not our debate. That is an issue for Eddie Bauer, Nano-Tex, and anyone in the industry concerned with it.

As we said before, we are addressing hype, because this industry's main product at this time is hype. It is indisputable that Eddie Bauer and Nano-Tex are producing nano-hype. We are producing counter-nano-hype.

You apparently lack subtlety, Mr. Smith. Perhaps you're confused by the skin? If so, we must be doing something right.

T.H.O.N.G.

Topless Humans Organized For Natural Genetics -- Putting Our Bodies Between Your Lips And Biotech

What deception? Show me the data! You yourself u...

2005-05-10T13:27:00.000-04:00

What deception? Show me the data! You yourself used the word alleged. Do you even know the process by which the pants are made? Do you know the theory behind how the pants work? Do you know anything at all about "nanotechnology"?

A little research never hurt anything except a disinformed opinion. As for perceived disingenuity, I do not at all think you are being disingenous. Misguided, yes, but disingenous, no.

If you really feel the need to put your body between my lips and biotech your too late. I deal with biotech everyday. FYI, nanopants are not biotech.

So alleged deception by a business enterprise is a...

2005-05-10T12:35:00.000-04:00

So alleged deception by a business enterprise is acceptable to you, but perceived disingenuity by a public health group is unacceptable to you.

We have now established your priorities.

We don't share them.

You may keep your dollar. We work without compensation, and would not accept a donation from someone who values profit over health in any event.

We do, however, thank you for your very personal illustration of precisely why this industry needs an organization like T.H.O.N.G

T.H.O.N.G.

Topless Humans Organized For Natural Genetics -- Putting Our Bodies Between Your Lips And Biotech

Maximizing profits by harming the public health? H...

2005-05-10T12:27:00.000-04:00

Maximizing profits by harming the public health? How american of them.

If you think that Eddie Bauer is hiding something,...

2005-05-10T12:07:00.000-04:00

If you think that Eddie Bauer is hiding something, standing topless in front of the store is hardly the appropriate response. Why not instead do some research into the development and manufacturing process. Maybe because this would give you an informed opinion? Maybe because it's not flashy enough? Maybe because you just get off being naked in public? Now go put your shirt back on as your current state of dress is very distracting.

Before you do, here's a dollar. Thanks for saving me the cover charge and drink minimum.

Thank you all for characterizing us as Luddites --...

2005-05-10T11:16:00.000-04:00

Thank you all for characterizing us as Luddites -- that is exactly the public image we have worked so hard to create.

anonymous 12:33 AM,

Every criticism you make of our application of the term "nanotechnology" to the action we executed on Saturday applies equally to Eddie Bauer and Nano-Tex. In fact, your criticism applies a fortiori to those business enterprises, since those enterprises are directly responsible for applying that term to their products.

That you are criticizing a public health group for taking business enterprises at their (allegedly, false) word demonstrates only your bias for business enterprises over public health groups. You are apparently quite willing to overlook alleged false advertising by industry, but can't tolerate any perceived inaccuracy by a public health group which has only a secondary role in the alleged falsehood.

At the moment, the nanotechnology industry is defined largely by its hype. We will not allow that hype to to be shaped without challenge. The public perception of nanotechnology will ultimately be determined by this hype, and we want to be certain that the hype is accompanied by appropriate cautions for safety and ethics.

If you would like to go on record accusing Eddie Bauer and Nano-Tex of deceptive advertising, we would be pleased to provide you with a mechanism for doing so. Just let us know.

T.H.O.N.G.

Topless Humans Organized For Natural Genetics -- Putting Our Bodies Between Your Lips And Biotech